Topic: The United Soviet (or Socialist) States of America

[Bone Crusher]

Suppose we do become socialist, I have been looking through the web for flags that would replace our flag:




More flags would be appericated.

[architechguy]

I like this one the best.

It's the flag that represents 13 colonies fighting for their right to choose who governs them.  It also represent the 37 states that came later who also stand up for their right to choose their government.  Last time I checked, we're still a free country where people have a choice in how their government is run.  If the day ever comes where that's not the case, and we no longer have a choice, where we're overtaken by an authoritarian dictator who rules against the will of the people, then we can be compared to the Soviet Union or China.  Until then, flags without a symbol of tyranny would be appreciated.  I don't agree with everything our government does, that's natural in a country this big.  At least we have a choice though, at least they asked me for my opinion and I gave it.  So long as the government keeps asking for that opinion, I'll take the flag that represents freedom.

[mpalmer4]

I like this one the best.

It's the flag that represents 13 colonies fighting for their right to choose who governs them.  It also represent the 37 states that came later who also stand up for their right to choose their government.  Last time I checked, we're still a free country where people have a choice in how their government is run.  If the day ever comes where that's not the case, and we no longer have a choice, where we're overtaken by an authoritarian dictator who rules against the will of the people, then we can be compared to the Soviet Union or China.  Until then, flags without a symbol of tyranny would be appreciated.  I don't agree with everything our government does, that's natural in a country this big.  At least we have a choice though, at least they asked me for my opinion and I gave it.  So long as the government keeps asking for that opinion, I'll take the flag that represents freedom.

+1.

At least someone around here isnt completely retarded.

[Bone Crusher]

I like this one the best.

It's the flag that represents 13 colonies fighting for their right to choose who governs them.  It also represent the 37 states that came later who also stand up for their right to choose their government.  Last time I checked, we're still a free country where people have a choice in how their government is run.  If the day ever comes where that's not the case, and we no longer have a choice, where we're overtaken by an authoritarian dictator who rules against the will of the people, then we can be compared to the Soviet Union or China.  Until then, flags without a symbol of tyranny would be appreciated.  I don't agree with everything our government does, that's natural in a country this big.  At least we have a choice though, at least they asked me for my opinion and I gave it.  So long as the government keeps asking for that opinion, I'll take the flag that represents freedom.

Archi,

There are many different ideas of what that flag stands for.  To me, that flag represents freedom and the American dream.  People from around the globe still do dream about coming to America to have a better future by immigrating to the USA and working hard to live under a roof and feed their families.  That is why I do not have any problems with Mexicans coming across the border because they do remind us of whyour great-grandparents or even great-great grandparents came to America in the first place.  It is a shame that this genernation that came from thoes European immigrants are spoiled to the core and decide it's okay for them to sit at home, play videogames, smoke dope, & collect welfare checks, and then whine about immigrants taking away the jobs that they wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole.  Wonder how many countries do offer you the chance to become successful without having to rely on the government?  I'm sure those immigrants don't miss relying on their native country governments to bail them out.

If we become socialist, America will no longer be the shining light for those immigrants and they will have to look elsewhere for that shining light and the choices are limited.  If that happens, we do not deserve to wave that flag because our nation no longer will represent that flag.  We might as well switch to the sickle & hammer symbol in the blue background of our flag.

[architechguy]

As long as we're a free country with human rights guaranteed and open elections where the people have a voice and can have their opinions be heard, then I don't give two sh!ts if our government is socialist.  I could live with the fact that my country is a social democracy... with heavy emphasis on the word DEMOCRACY.  There are many, many industrialized and prosperous countries that are social democracies.  It's not my preference, I favor limited government personally.  However I can accept a social democracy so long as I don't live in a fascist, tyrannical, authoritarian country and it's elected by the people.  Luckily, we still have that and it ain't changing at any time in the future.  As long as the voters of this country continue to have a voice, and can vote their politicians in or out then I'm happy with whatever decision the voters come to.  The misconception that people can't seem to separate is that socialism and authoritarianism are NOT one in the same.  You can have a free market, capitalist and prosperous society that has varying levels of socialistic aspects at the same time, half the democratic countries around the world fall under that category.  Again, it doesn't mean that's what I want this country to be, but nobody is saying that we're going to be a full fledged communist country where everybody's paychecks are the same, they're paid by the state and your employment is assigned to you like in the Soviet Union.  When elections are banned (like in Nazi Germany), and protesters are shot on site (like a month ago in Iran), and any voice of dissent is shipped off to the gulags, then fly the damn hammer and sickle.  While we still have open elections, and freedom of speech, and the freedom to choose how to live our lives, then keep flying the stars and stripes.  If you want a symbol of social democracy on our flag, then throw the Swedish flag on their somewhere, or a Canadian, Dutch or Swiss flag.

[Bone Crusher]

As long as we're a free country with human rights guaranteed and open elections where the people have a voice and can have their opinions be heard, then I don't give two sh!ts if our government is socialist.  I could live with the fact that my country is a social democracy... with heavy emphasis on the word DEMOCRACY.  There are many, many industrialized and prosperous countries that are social democracies.  It's not my preference, I favor limited government personally.  However I can accept a social democracy so long as I don't live in a fascist, tyrannical, authoritarian country and it's elected by the people.  Luckily, we still have that and it ain't changing at any time in the future.  As long as the voters of this country continue to have a voice, and can vote their politicians in or out then I'm happy with whatever decision the voters come to.  The misconception that people can't seem to separate is that socialism and authoritarianism are NOT one in the same.  You can have a free market, capitalist and prosperous society that has varying levels of socialistic aspects at the same time, half the democratic countries around the world fall under that category.  Again, it doesn't mean that's what I want this country to be, but nobody is saying that we're going to be a full fledged communist country where everybody's paychecks are the same, they're paid by the state and your employment is assigned to you like in the Soviet Union.  When elections are banned (like in Nazi Germany), and protesters are shot on site (like a month ago in Iran), and any voice of dissent is shipped off to the gulags, then fly the damn hammer and sickle.  While we still have open elections, and freedom of speech, and the freedom to choose how to live our lives, then keep flying the stars and stripes.  If you want a symbol of social democracy on our flag, then throw the Swedish flag on their somewhere, or a Canadian, Dutch or Swiss flag.

We do have it good right now but the more closer we move towards socialism, those wonderful things about our country will gradually disappear.

http://www.therightperspective.org/2009/02/11/putin-warns-us-about-socialsm/

Putin even went as far to warn us about socialism.

[architechguy]

When you read that article, did you realize that not one time was the word "social" or "socialism" mentioned anywhere in the article or quoted by Putin?  Not one single time.  It's only mentioned in the title, but the title doesn't actually properly describe the body of the article the way it's supposed to.  Putin is not talking about socialism, he's talking about excessive government intervention and state owned and controlled enterprise.  He has an excellent point about not relying on military buildup to jump start the economy, I think he's exactly right in all that he says in this article.  However, what he's talking about has nothing to do with socialism.

Again, I'm not advocating socialism, I'm not trying to defend it or say that it's the ideal political ideology.  I'm just trying to debunk the common myths and misunderstandings we have about it.  I'm just trying to keep the discussion on point, socialism isn't the bad guy here, it's not the culprit that's going to ruin our country.  I think it's irrelevant to our country's problems, and here's a specific example of why I think so.  If we want the socialistic Universal Healthcare in this country, that's one thing, it's all fine and dandy, but that still doesn't address the issue of why people don't have healthcare in the first place.  So many families don't have it because it's prohibitively expensive.  The government paying for it through universal healthcare would not lower the cost of it any way at all.  So the socialism part doesn't matter since the cost is the same regardless of whether I pay for myself through my paycheck or if the government pays for it out of my taxes which also come out of my paycheck.  Lowering the cost of the healthcare is the goal, not the socialistic argument of who pays for it.  So again, I think the only reason the word is even used is to push people's buttons.  This goes back to what Putin is really talking about, he's warning us not to just blindly let the government pay for things without asking the question of why it's expensive.  He's warning us not to just buy up all toxic assets without asking why they're toxic.  Letting someone else pay for something that's extraordinarily and unnecessarily expensive is just as irresponsible as paying for it yourself, especially when it's just going to get billed right back to you.

[MIZtigersZOU]

I just had a long response typed...but I will hold back.  Just some things I have been reading here lately have been pretty offensive.  Who is ready for some football??

[Bone Crusher]

I just had a long response typed...but I will hold back.  Just some things I have been reading here lately have been pretty offensive.  Who is ready for some football??

Dude, all of us are ready for football and this is a political forum.  Part of what makes this board great is the ability to talk about anything without resorting to name calling and personal attacks.

[nickpapageorgio81]

As long as we're a free country with human rights guaranteed and open elections where the people have a voice and can have their opinions be heard, then I don't give two sh!ts if our government is socialist.  I could live with the fact that my country is a social democracy... with heavy emphasis on the word DEMOCRACY.  There are many, many industrialized and prosperous countries that are social democracies.  It's not my preference, I favor limited government personally.  However I can accept a social democracy so long as I don't live in a fascist, tyrannical, authoritarian country and it's elected by the people.  Luckily, we still have that and it ain't changing at any time in the future.  As long as the voters of this country continue to have a voice, and can vote their politicians in or out then I'm happy with whatever decision the voters come to.  The misconception that people can't seem to separate is that socialism and authoritarianism are NOT one in the same.  You can have a free market, capitalist and prosperous society that has varying levels of socialistic aspects at the same time, half the democratic countries around the world fall under that category.  Again, it doesn't mean that's what I want this country to be, but nobody is saying that we're going to be a full fledged communist country where everybody's paychecks are the same, they're paid by the state and your employment is assigned to you like in the Soviet Union.  When elections are banned (like in Nazi Germany), and protesters are shot on site (like a month ago in Iran), and any voice of dissent is shipped off to the gulags, then fly the damn hammer and sickle.  While we still have open elections, and freedom of speech, and the freedom to choose how to live our lives, then keep flying the stars and stripes.  If you want a symbol of social democracy on our flag, then throw the Swedish flag on their somewhere, or a Canadian, Dutch or Swiss flag.

There is no such thing as a Socialistic or Communistic democracy.  those two isms dont jive with the FREAKING CONTITUTION, which has the Bill of Rights, which gives us our liberty.  Socialism and Communism is fascism, and fascism runs EVERYTHING.  If the government runs everything, the Constitution is DEAD.  Sure, sometime Capitalism is predatorial and obscene, but its the closest thing to freedom and the Constitution besides anarchism we got.  So id you want the Constitution, you have two choices.  Anarchism, or Capitalism.  Choose, I dont care which one.

[Blackshirts]

LOL you really don't know the definition of capitalism do you?  Just like those G20 protesters Calling for anarchy and an end to capitalism...a pure capitalist economy would be pure anarchy...No restrictions no taxes no government supervision....and that would be BAD

[Scarecrow]

I think before the USSofA, I think we'll have a North American Union.  Truthfully, I don't see much in place trying to stop it.  When Obama grants amnesty to the illegals after the health bill passes, the NAU is all but certain.  The dollar will be worth a fraction of what it's worth now so we'll adopt the Amero to sell to China.  But at least we'll have access to Mexican and Canadian oil.

I also think there will be a day I will be talking to my grandkids about the former USA and what it once stood for since it won't be taught in any of their history books.  I might be pessimistic, but we are moving in that direction and an alarming rate.

I don't think the NAU will fall all the way to facism or marxism.  It will just move over into a socialist democracy like a lot of the European countries.  We want to be like Europe don't we?  At least our President has apologized to them for the US being different and our claims of being sovereign.

[nickpapageorgio81]

LOL you really don't know the definition of capitalism do you?  Just like those G20 protesters Calling for anarchy and an end to capitalism...a pure capitalist economy would be pure anarchy...No restrictions no taxes no government supervision....and that would be BAD

I was actually speaking of the Capitalism we had 10-20 years ago than TRUE capitalism.  How about you comment on what I said commie, instead of pointing out something we all know.

[architechguy]

It will just move over into a socialist democracy like a lot of the European countries.  We want to be like Europe don't we?  At least our President has apologized to them for the US being different and our claims of being sovereign.

I don't want to be more like Europe just for the sake of it.  I want the voters of this country to stop being so damn myopic and close minded.  There are tons of positives we can draw from European politics and society that we disregards because it's not American.  We don't have to do everything the way they do, I sure don't want us to do it the way they do, but we need to cherry pick the best parts and put it into use in our system.

[Scarecrow]

I don't want to be more like Europe just for the sake of it.  I want the voters of this country to stop being so damn myopic and close minded.  There are tons of positives we can draw from European politics and society that we disregards because it's not American.  We don't have to do everything the way they do, I sure don't want us to do it the way they do, but we need to cherry pick the best parts and put it into use in our system.

Oh, I was being sarcastic.  What I like about America is that we are unique and formed a unique government/economic system that made us the most powerful country in the world for 100+ years.

I think we'll lose that when we start adopting other countries' system and methodology of government and economic system.  I think it's a sad day when our President chooses to apologize to these countries.  Did he think they would respect him more?  We saw how much that accomplished last week when Obama strode into Denmark like a King.

[architechguy]

I don't think it's a bad thing when our president apologizes IF that apology has merit.  Not apologizing for anything implies that our government is infallible and it's clearly not.

[Scarecrow]

I don't think it's a bad thing when our president apologizes IF that apology has merit.  Not apologizing for anything implies that our government is infallible and it's clearly not.

Does this apology have merit:

The president chose Arab television, Al Arabiya, to give his first sit-down interview. He took the opportunity to confirm the long held Arab view that the real problem is America and President Obama apologized on our behalf.
 
"...America was not born as a colonial power," he told the Arab viewing audience -- implying we are now. And he regretfully confessed that "We sometimes make mistakes. We are not perfect."

- Star Parker of CURE

"Chinese and Russian leaders blamed a free-wheeling U.S. financial system as the source of the global economic crisis," according to the Wall Street Journal.
 
European Commission president Jose Manuel Barraso proclaimed confidently that "President Obama is moving toward a European-style model."
 
Our new president is a man of action as well as a man of words, so while he and his staff apologized to the world for who we have been, he began the task at home to make us a different country.
 
Under the pretense of economic stimulus, the president began in earnest his work to nationalize the American economy.

[nickpapageorgio81]

I don't want to be more like Europe just for the sake of it.  I want the voters of this country to stop being so damn myopic and close minded.  There are tons of positives we can draw from European politics and society that we disregards because it's not American.  We don't have to do everything the way they do, I sure don't want us to do it the way they do, but we need to cherry pick the best parts and put it into use in our system.

Thomas Jefferson said it would be foolish for us as a country to ever adopt any method of government that Europe practices.  I know you are referring to health care, and 85% of US citizens agree that we need reform. Most of us dont want the government to run it, and for good reason (this administration main philosophy is EUGENICS).  If you want to reform health care, all you need to do is deregulate it.  Allow insurance companies to go across state lines, and costs will drop. 

[Blackshirts]

1.) Jefferson said that when most of Europe was Monarchy's
2.) The governments policy is NOT eugenics, that is right wing scare tactics and has been thoroughly debunked.  I have a grandfather on the same healthcare everyone else would get.  If these scare tactics were true he would be getting put down, instead he has been going to one of the top heart hospitals in the nation.

[architechguy]

I wasn't talking about healthcare, I was mostly referring to transportation and infrastructure that is eroding in this country.

BTW, you do realize that when Thomas Jefferson said that, the majority of European governments were still empirical monarchies?  He championed the cause for a democracy, which already existed in Britain, so he himself endorsed a method of government that Europe practices.

[Scarecrow]

BTW, you do realize that when Thomas Jefferson said that, the majority of European governments were still empirical monarchies?  He championed the cause for a democracy, which already existed in Britain, so he himself endorsed a method of government that Europe practices.

Not necessarily.  The US was "experimenting" with a new form or democracy creating the Presidency/executive branch and giving equal authority to all three branches of government.   This was John Adams plan when he wrote the pamphlet Thoughts on Government which preceded the constitution and the creation of the executive branch by 13 years. 

[nickpapageorgio81]

1.) Jefferson said that when most of Europe was Monarchy's
2.) The governments policy is NOT eugenics, that is right wing scare tactics and has been thoroughly debunked.  I have a grandfather on the same healthcare everyone else would get.  If these scare tactics were true he would be getting put down, instead he has been going to one of the top heart hospitals in the nation.

You really need to stop commenting on what I post because you are lost.  Look into some of the names Planned Parenthood used to have.  I am not right wing.  I am an independant.  Scare tactics?  What about global warming or using scare tactics for bailouts.  Hypocrit.

[nickpapageorgio81]

Obviously, these guys dont read Jefferson.  They just make assumptions on the year it was said.  What you dont know, is Jefferson saw all of this.  There are hundreds of letters he wrote dealing with COMMUNISM!

[Blackshirts]

Scare tactics?  What about global warming or using scare tactics for bailouts.  Hypocrit.

Don't call me a Hypocrite if you don't know my position.  I am on the fence about global warming and against bailouts.  I too am an Independent, but unlike some I don't tow one parties line...just my own.

[nickpapageorgio81]

Don't call me a Hypocrite if you don't know my position.  I am on the fence about global warming and against bailouts.  I too am an Independent, but unlike some I don't tow one parties line...just my own.

You are still on the fence on Global Warming?  Dude, if you would do your research, you will see that the League of Rome in the mid 70's made up global warming for several reasons.  1.  Citizens of a free republic would more than likely give up their liberties if it were to a good cause like "Saving the planet." 2.  Introduced it as a possible new taxation.  If you did your research, you would see that ALL planets in our system are warming.  Jupiter has a moon made of ice and now that moon is melting, creating a water surface.