Topic: NHL Thread:

[Bone Crusher]

Loper had a NHL Thread going on before the Great Crash.  I'll restart this because I saw this on Sporting News: http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=475551

There is talk of a second NHL team in Toronto.

[architechguy]

I'm kinda torn on the idea myself.  I'm not a big fan of two team cities in pro sports, it doubles up the market kinda the way Starbucks does by putting one shop across the street from another shop.  It's bad business in a way.  However, I see the opposite side too, I love a good intra-city derby matchup.  The article doesn't say if it would be an expansion team though.  The NHL doesn't need any new teams, but they're stubbornly refusing to move any non-traditional market team.  Ideally, they'd move Nashville, Florida or Phoenix.

[Bone Crusher]

The NHL is in the best position to expand since there are available cities in Canada and the US.  It'd be best to do it in twos at a time.

Let's look at the Rangers and Islanders.  Long Island has 7 million people on it (from wikipedia) while Manhattan has 1.6 million (from Wikipedia as well) for the Rangers.  In theory, the Bronx, Brooklyn, and Queens are capable of supporting their own hockey teams but that would be just too many hockey teams in that case.  Let's say it takes about 2.5 million to truly support a NHL team because that would be how many those listed NYC boroughs have (not to be exact).  The Toronto area has 5 million (from the wonderful wiki!) so in that case, they can support two teams.  Montreal has 3.6 million but given how much they love hockey, I believe two teams could be doable there. 

[Bone Crusher]

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=476060

Looks like it's pretty much talk for now.  The comments section seem to have many people commenting from Canada.  I will never understand why Canada has such few teams.

[architechguy]

The country as a whole is about the size of California, approx. 35 million people or so.  They have 6 teams as it is.  Montreal and Toronto could surely support a second team, but I'm not sure the league could support two more.  With the rise of European leagues, the lack of a transfer agreement, and the lack of top notch talent coming from those leagues like we had in the 90's is going to mean a diluted talent pool in a league that already has a fairly diluted talent pool.

[Bone Crusher]

The country as a whole is about the size of California, approx. 35 million people or so.  They have 6 teams as it is.  Montreal and Toronto could surely support a second team, but I'm not sure the league could support two more.  With the rise of European leagues, the lack of a transfer agreement, and the lack of top notch talent coming from those leagues like we had in the 90's is going to mean a diluted talent pool in a league that already has a fairly diluted talent pool.

Totally agree with you on that one.  We'll have to look at some markets that hasn't really supported their team like the NHL hoped.

[Bone Crusher]

I just thought about the arena issues in the NHL.

The Penguins are constructing a new arena (they recently broke ground): http://penguins.nhl.com/team/app/?service=page&page=NewsPage&articleid=379405



I also read that the home of the Islanders is slated for a major renovation starting next year.  It is truly obselte since I didn't read anything about luxury suite boxes.

Calgary's Saddledome is to be run by the Flames until 2014 but after reading that arena having 76 suite boxes, I think that place is safe.

The same could be said for the Oilers' arena which has 67 suite boxes.

Right now, I'd say there are no teams with an immediate need of a new arena so expansion might be the only option here.

[architechguy]

It's gonna take more than a renovation for that dump the Islanders play in!  That place is a rat's nest.  No team is safe from being moved, no matter what, no team is safe.

[thedrUNKenLoper]

I think that Winnipeg/Quebec should build a new arena and get a franchise back not someone in Canada like Hamilton right between Ottawa or Toronto. The NHL should stay at its current number just move some teams around.

[Bone Crusher]

I think that Winnipeg/Quebec should build a new arena and get a franchise back not someone in Canada like Hamilton right between Ottawa or Toronto. The NHL should stay at its current number just move some teams around.

Quebec City is not big enough and Winnipeg has already built a new arena.

[architechguy]

The new arena in Winnipeg is too small, it's only like a 13,000 seat arena.  Even the worst teams in average attendance like New Jersey and Nashville average well over 14 or 15K.  Plus, sports fan in Winnipeg already watch the games, so you're not going to create any new revenue there.  Same with Quebec City, it's probably even worse there.  The Nordiques got smothered by the nearby Canadiens and Maple Leafs, and the expansion Senators.  Then, when the Thrashers came into the league they moved the minor league Atlanta Knights to Quebec City to replace the Nordiques, they lasted two seasons before folding.  Southwestern Ontario is the best bet for another NHL team, it's the largest populated area of the entire country, and it has the heaviest corporate presence.  Detroit's fansbase is safe, the Leafs fanbase is safe, the only team that would complain is Buffalo.

My recommendation is to take Florida, move them to Ontario and put them in the division with the Red Wings, Blackhawks, Blue Jackets, and Blues.  Then move Nashville to the Southeast to be with Tampa, Carolina, Atlanta and Washington.  That way, both divisions play off the existing city rivalries like you have with the NFL and college football.  Big 10 schools play hockey, so there are rivalries there.  Then, you can play off the SEC/ACC and NFC South rivalries in the Southeast Division.

[Bone Crusher]

The new arena in Winnipeg is too small, it's only like a 13,000 seat arena.  Even the worst teams in average attendance like New Jersey and Nashville average well over 14 or 15K.  Plus, sports fan in Winnipeg already watch the games, so you're not going to create any new revenue there.  Same with Quebec City, it's probably even worse there.  The Nordiques got smothered by the nearby Canadiens and Maple Leafs, and the expansion Senators.  Then, when the Thrashers came into the league they moved the minor league Atlanta Knights to Quebec City to replace the Nordiques, they lasted two seasons before folding.  Southwestern Ontario is the best bet for another NHL team, it's the largest populated area of the entire country, and it has the heaviest corporate presence.  Detroit's fansbase is safe, the Leafs fanbase is safe, the only team that would complain is Buffalo.

My recommendation is to take Florida, move them to Ontario and put them in the division with the Red Wings, Blackhawks, Blue Jackets, and Blues.  Then move Nashville to the Southeast to be with Tampa, Carolina, Atlanta and Washington.  That way, both divisions play off the existing city rivalries like you have with the NFL and college football.  Big 10 schools play hockey, so there are rivalries there.  Then, you can play off the SEC/ACC and NFC South rivalries in the Southeast Division.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MTS_Centre

Archi, Winnipeg's new arena has just over 15,000 seats not the 13k you said.  The difference between the old Winnipeg Arena and the MTS Centre is that the MTS Centre has the luxury suites which is important.  I'm very sure people from Canada would pay more than Americans to watch a hockey game.  The NHL's CBA will allow small market teams to survive.  Winnipeg has the corporate support necessary to support a new NHL team.  You are forgetting that it's not always about how many fans show up for the games, it's the corporate support that fuels professional sports today.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colis%C3%A9e_Pepsi

As for Quebec City, there is talk of having the old arena replaced shortly.  However, I don't think the corporate support is quite there for Quebec City.  The political support isn't there as well.

Florida is stuck at their arena for at least 20 years so a move cannot happen unless the Panthers pay A LOT of money.  In other words, it's not gonna happen.  Expansion is pretty much the only option on the table if Nashville won't move.

[architechguy]

I made up that 13K number, but they were talking about Winnipeg on the XM Radio hockey channel and said their arena is too small for NHL standards.  So I was just going off something I heard. 

The only security that I feel for my local team is that the Thrashers/Hawks owners own the operating rights to Philips Arena too.  That's not something that couldn't be worked around if a deal were on the table, but it's a strong deterrent. 

[thedrUNKenLoper]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2008/writers/sarah_kwak/12/04/third.jerseys/index.html?eref=sircrc

The number of teams with a third jersey is amazing

[Bone Crusher]

The Pens and Flyers do have great 3rd jerseys.  The Sharks look good in black.  The others are meh.

[Bone Crusher]

http://www.kansascity.com/sports/story/1070203.html

The NY Islanders are getting much more serious about moving.  They are using KC as possible leverage to get renovations of their arena going.

[architechguy]

They're a team that absolutely needs a new arena.  Charles Wang is on the short list of the worst owners in sports, so it would be a blessing if he were to sell the team.  I'd hate to see them leave because Long Island is a good hockey market and they're the only pro sports team on the island.  If KC wants a hockey team, they need to take the Florida Panthers or Phoenix Coyotes.

[Bone Crusher]

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?t=550680

I have to wonder if the Phoenix Coyotes will go back to Canada.  The key is if the Coyotes can break their lease with the city of Glendale.  It seems much more likely that expansion under Bettman has been a fluke and based on that, he needs to go as the NHL commisoner.  He is the only major sports comissioner that needs to call it quits.

[thedrUNKenLoper]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/allan_muir/05/22/roenick.wang.islanders/index.html

[thedrUNKenLoper]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/story?columnist=wojciechowski_gene&id=4201471&sportCat=nhl

[Bone Crusher]

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/allan_muir/05/22/roenick.wang.islanders/index.html

If the Islanders moved to Brooklyn, there would be no sense in calling them the Islanders.  The Rangers will always be NYC's hockey team and the Islanders might as well go somewhere else.  People don't realize that with the number of pro teams even in a large area like NYC, the more teams there are, the less money to go around.

[Bone Crusher]

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/columns/story?columnist=wojciechowski_gene&id=4201471&sportCat=nhl

The NHL is definetly more of a regional sport in the US while in Canada, it's the national sport.  Football, basketball, and baseball can be played in the humidity.  With hockey, that's a problem especially when it's hot outside.

It's time for Gary Bettman to swallow his pride and admit that expansion into the southern parts of the US has been largely a failure in cities with other established sports teams.

[architechguy]

Hockey is not a failure in the southern US.  I live in one of those cities and there is hockey passion here.  I think the biggest problem with the expansion is that it happened too fast, it flooded the southern market and at the same time drained the northern market.  I think we're seeing that balance restored now.  Teams like Boston and Chicago, who had two of the worst owners in sports, weren't willing to spend money on free agents and marketing their team in the new era of hockey, they never had to do it before when there were only a dozen teams so they didn't feel they had to do it now.  So strong market, traditional teams went in the crapper for decades.  That meant that small market Canadian teams and small market southern teams like Tampa, Dallas, and Anaheim had to carry the league, and there just weren't enough casual fans to do that, only the hardcores.  The problem with the Canadian market, and I think Bettman knows this, is that even if EVERY person in Canada watched every game, that's still fewer people than the population of California.  There just aren't enough people up there.

BC makes a good point about New York having so many teams, that's the same thing that would happen in Canada if Hamilton, Ontario gets a team.  You're taking a team from a city of 4 or 5 million people in Phoenix and moving them to a city of 1 million, that already has two hockey teams within a 1 hour drive.

[thedrUNKenLoper]

Lacrosse is actually the national sport of Canada but I agree the Islanders moving to Brooklyn isnt a good idea

[thedrUNKenLoper]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puck_daddy/post/Hockey-mystery-What-happens-to-hats-thrown-for-?urn=nhl,167824